Eagle vs. Electronics Workbench? Anyone have experience

[Grant Baxter]

Hi All,

I've been using the Electronics workbench suite of schematic capture and
layout tools for a few years and I am FED UP with buggy software and bilking
for $$. I'm tired of paying EWB to do their QA for them. I don't consider
myself an advanced user, but I do have need for a reliable and flexible
schematic cap and layout package on a regular basis. I came to EWB from
expresspcb. I really really like expresspcb's clean simple interface and
rock solid dependable performance. However, as the complexity of my circuit
boards increased, I needed the ability to create 4 and 6 layer boards. I
was also interested in autorouter/autoplacer functionality, and the ability
to do some simulation on my circuits. I was also looking for some kind of
standard file input/output.

At this point, I'm less concerned about the ability to model circuits, and
more concerned about finding a workhorse software suite that will allow
myself and my co-workers to produce schematics and layouts quickly and
efficiently.

I'm most interested in the following:
- Bug free software that I can have confidence in (especially in critical
functions like connectivity checks and other design rules checks)
- Responsive support -- the fact that this forum exists and that tech
support is free is excellent.
- Accurate and frequently updated documentation
- Flexible part creation & library support (schematic and layout). I need
to be able to create a part(s), send a schematic to a co-worker and have
them be able to either import a part(s) from the schematic file, or be able
to send them parts that they can incorporate into their libraries.
- Ability to forward annotate changes in schematic to layout.
- A respectable autorouter would be great - even if it just gets me started
and I have to wire the rest of the board by hand.
- Power plane support

Those are the items that come to mind at the moment. Anyone have experience
w/ these two products that could give me an objective comparison? I'm also
considering OrCAD as I've heard only positive comments from professionals
who use the software commercially -- even though the price of entry is quite
high.

I'm aware of Altium/Protel, but when I've visited their website, their
offerings seem very fragmented, and I'm not sure which package would be most
appropriate for analog/digital schematic capture and layout.

In the end, I'm looking for a powerful, flexible suite that will allow us to
grow as our company needs grow. If I can find a tool that will serve us for
years, the significant time commitment to fully exploiting a new toolsuite
will be easier to swallow.

Thanks,
Grant

Grant W. Baxter
Lead Systems Engineer
New Product Development
Sekos, Inc

[Joerg]

Hello Grant,

Post by Grant Baxter
At this point, I'm less concerned about the ability to model circuits, and
more concerned about finding a workhorse software suite that will allow
myself and my co-workers to produce schematics and layouts quickly and
efficiently.

I believe Eagle is the ticket then. I went from OrCad to Eagle, mainly
because OrCad got so expensive and isn't very compatible between versions.

Post by Grant Baxter
- Bug free software that I can have confidence in (especially in critical
functions like connectivity checks and other design rules checks)

Well, nothing is ever really bug free. The only annoying bug in Eagle
that I saw so far is hang-ups on printing. But kicking it a little
always did the trick ;-)

Post by Grant Baxter
- Responsive support -- the fact that this forum exists and that tech
support is free is excellent.

I can only say that it is excellent.

Post by Grant Baxter
- Accurate and frequently updated documentation

A bit skimpy IMHO but you can always ask here.

Post by Grant Baxter
- Flexible part creation & library support (schematic and layout). I need
to be able to create a part(s), send a schematic to a co-worker and have
them be able to either import a part(s) from the schematic file, or be able
to send them parts that they can incorporate into their libraries.

Creating lib parts is not as easy as with other CAD SW. OrCad was easier
there. But you can create a full library from all the parts in a
schematic and then pick out the ones that are new to you.

Post by Grant Baxter
- Ability to forward annotate changes in schematic to layout.

No experience there since I don't do layout. But IIRC fwd anno is no big
deal. Eagle is nicely integrated.

Post by Grant Baxter
- A respectable autorouter would be great - even if it just gets me started
and I have to wire the rest of the board by hand.
- Power plane support

Can comment on these.

All in all I find that the only real downside for us in North America is
that Eagle hasn't penetrated the market place much. If you farm out
layouts like we do that presents a problem. The layouters are not
familiar with Eagle, many have never heard of it (hey, folks at Cadsoft:
You need to advertise more...).

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

[David Moodie]

Post by Joerg
Hello Grant,

Post by Grant Baxter
At this point, I'm less concerned about the ability to model circuits,
and more concerned about finding a workhorse software suite that will
allow myself and my co-workers to produce schematics and layouts
quickly and efficiently.

Just to add my own comments to Joerg's viewpoints

Post by Joerg
I believe Eagle is the ticket then. I went from OrCad to Eagle, mainly
because OrCad got so expensive and isn't very compatible between versions.

Post by Grant Baxter
- Bug free software that I can have confidence in (especially in
critical functions like connectivity checks and other design rules
checks)

Well, nothing is ever really bug free. The only annoying bug in Eagle
that I saw so far is hang-ups on printing. But kicking it a little
always did the trick ;-)

This is certainly one of the the most stable packages I've used. While
cadsoft asks the users to help in debugging new software/beta versions they
do so in an up front manner, not by surreptitiously releasing dodgy versions.

Eagles DRC is ok, but it also has an erc functions that may throw up many
warnings regarding schematic connections,e.g. where power pins are connected
to nets with different names etc. it's kind of a good idea, but can
occasionally throw up so many warnings that I choose to ignore it. One of
the areas that is in need of improvement.

Post by Joerg

Post by Grant Baxter
- Responsive support -- the fact that this forum exists and that tech
support is free is excellent.

I can only say that it is excellent.

The forums here are good and the occasions that I've had any real issues
I've e-mailed Cadsoft directly and they have provided good service.

Post by Joerg

Post by Grant Baxter
- Accurate and frequently updated documentation

A bit skimpy IMHO but you can always ask here.

The documentation is pretty poor.. possibly Eagle's weakest point
Everything is there somewhere, it is just that the indexing and cross
referencing is not very well integrated. The same goes for the on-line help,
as in the help and details of the commands are in there but you kinda need
to know what the command is before you can look it up. there are a few
quirks with Eagle that may stump new users (cut/copy,mirror etc) but once
you're familiar with it then there should be no prob. Some new users have a
problem with Eagle not conforming to windows standards in the cut/copy paste
operations, but these can be overcome to some degree through
customisation of shortcut keys.

Post by Joerg

Post by Grant Baxter
- Flexible part creation & library support (schematic and layout). I
need to be able to create a part(s), send a schematic to a co-worker
and have them be able to either import a part(s) from the schematic
file, or be able to send them parts that they can incorporate into
their libraries.

Creating lib parts is not as easy as with other CAD SW. OrCad was easier
there. But you can create a full library from all the parts in a
schematic and then pick out the ones that are new to you.

Part creation and management is slowly improving. Again, once your used to
the way eagle expects you to do it, it is not an issue. It just might not be
obvious first time around

Post by Joerg

Post by Grant Baxter
- Ability to forward annotate changes in schematic to layout.

The forward and back annotation in Eagle is good. You can change values in
the brd and these will follow in the sch, similarly and mods to the sch will
appear in the brd. Parts are only added in the sch. The only time it
buggers up if you don;t have both sch and brd open at the same time.

Post by Joerg
No experience there since I don't do layout. But IIRC fwd anno is no big
deal. Eagle is nicely integrated.

Post by Grant Baxter
- A respectable autorouter would be great - even if it just gets me
started and I have to wire the rest of the board by hand.
- Power plane support

While others are happy with the autorouter, I don't use it. Tried it out a
few times and occasionally have another look, but I normally spend as much
time cleaning things up as I do routing manually from the start. It depends
how critical your design rules are,and your own personal standards I suppose.

Power planes are OK, and arbitrary shaped filled polygons can be made in any
layer.


A more general point, is that does have a pretty powerful user programming
language, many are supplied by cadsoft for generation of bill of material,
more powerful component search, and there are also a number of user ulp's
available for download.

All in all I'm happy with Eagle and have been using it for 6-7 years.

On a separate note, regarding simulation, my self and many others here use
LTSpice/SwitcherCad, available free from Linear Technology... I would
strongly recommend this package.

cheers

David

[Joerg]

Hello David,

Post by David Moodie
On a separate note, regarding simulation, my self and many others here
use LTSpice/SwitcherCad, available free from Linear Technology... I
would strongly recommend this package.

Agree. With the other comments as well :-)

Probably you can generate a SPICE netlist with Eagle. I haven't tried
that yet as I am part of the generation that had gotten used to writing
a sim as a text file.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

[u***@domain.invalid]

Post by Grant Baxter
Hi All,
I've been using the Electronics workbench suite of schematic capture and
layout tools for a few years and I am FED UP with buggy software and bilking
for $$. I'm tired of paying EWB to do their QA for them. I don't consider
myself an advanced user, but I do have need for a reliable and flexible
schematic cap and layout package on a regular basis. I came to EWB from
expresspcb. I really really like expresspcb's clean simple interface and
rock solid dependable performance. However, as the complexity of my circuit
boards increased, I needed the ability to create 4 and 6 layer boards. I
was also interested in autorouter/autoplacer functionality, and the ability
to do some simulation on my circuits. I was also looking for some kind of
standard file input/output.
At this point, I'm less concerned about the ability to model circuits, and
more concerned about finding a workhorse software suite that will allow
myself and my co-workers to produce schematics and layouts quickly and
efficiently.
- Bug free software that I can have confidence in (especially in critical
functions like connectivity checks and other design rules checks)
- Responsive support -- the fact that this forum exists and that tech
support is free is excellent.
- Accurate and frequently updated documentation
- Flexible part creation & library support (schematic and layout). I need
to be able to create a part(s), send a schematic to a co-worker and have
them be able to either import a part(s) from the schematic file, or be able
to send them parts that they can incorporate into their libraries.
- Ability to forward annotate changes in schematic to layout.
- A respectable autorouter would be great - even if it just gets me started
and I have to wire the rest of the board by hand.
- Power plane support
Those are the items that come to mind at the moment. Anyone have experience
w/ these two products that could give me an objective comparison? I'm also
considering OrCAD as I've heard only positive comments from professionals
who use the software commercially -- even though the price of entry is quite
high.
I'm aware of Altium/Protel, but when I've visited their website, their
offerings seem very fragmented, and I'm not sure which package would be most
appropriate for analog/digital schematic capture and layout.
In the end, I'm looking for a powerful, flexible suite that will allow us to
grow as our company needs grow. If I can find a tool that will serve us for
years, the significant time commitment to fully exploiting a new toolsuite
will be easier to swallow.
Thanks,
Grant
Grant W. Baxter
Lead Systems Engineer
New Product Development
Sekos, Inc

I use Electronic Workbench at ITT Tech (as an instructor) and you are
right about how bad it is. I prefer Eagle for schematic capture, layout
and route by about ... oh say a thousand percent. I also use Tina Pro
for simulation since it is not buggy and is very cheap to purchase. Some
of my students also have tried Tina Pro and prefer it. Now as long as
the word doesn't get out about Tina Pro there won't be any major price
increase.

Does anyone know how to export from Eagle to Tina Pro?

Jim Alcock

[Andrew Sterian]

Post by Grant Baxter
- Bug free software that I can have confidence in (especially in critical
functions like connectivity checks and other design rules checks)

It's more bug-free than any commercial software I've used. Under Linux,
I've never had it 'crash', never lost data, etc. From version to version,
the authors publish a detailed list of changes and you never see things
like "Fixed a bug which deleted all data on your hard disk when you pressed
the K key".

Post by Grant Baxter
- Responsive support -- the fact that this forum exists and that tech
support is free is excellent.

Agreed!

Post by Grant Baxter
- Accurate and frequently updated documentation

OK...the documentation is my biggest beef with Eagle. It took me forever to
figure out what "MOVE * *.." meant in the documentation when you type "help
move". You have to kinda read it like a book, from front to back, more than as
a jump-in reference or you will butt your head against things like this.
Using the software for a couple of years will make the documentation make much
more sense (it should, of course, not be like this).

Post by Grant Baxter
- Flexible part creation & library support (schematic and layout). I need
to be able to create a part(s), send a schematic to a co-worker and have
them be able to either import a part(s) from the schematic file, or be able
to send them parts that they can incorporate into their libraries.

Yes, yes, and yes. The exp-project-lbr.ulp script file generates a library
of parts from the parts on a schematic. There are other ways to achieve
what you describe.

Post by Grant Baxter
- Ability to forward annotate changes in schematic to layout.

Changes are made immediately. You always keep the schematic and board open
at the same time. You make a change in the schematic, it shows up in the
board immediately.

Post by Grant Baxter
- A respectable autorouter would be great - even if it just gets me started
and I have to wire the rest of the board by hand.

The router is more than respectable. Also, you can buy a relatively
inexpensive add-on router for Eagle (called Electra) that handles the
jobs that Eagle's built-in router can't.

Post by Grant Baxter
- Power plane support

Yes.

Post by Grant Baxter
Those are the items that come to mind at the moment. Anyone have experience
w/ these two products that could give me an objective comparison? I'm also
considering OrCAD as I've heard only positive comments from professionals
who use the software commercially -- even though the price of entry is quite
high.
I'm aware of Altium/Protel, but when I've visited their website, their
offerings seem very fragmented, and I'm not sure which package would be most
appropriate for analog/digital schematic capture and layout.

No (recent) experience with the above. I've used Orcad in the past and
just about pulled all my hair out using PADS. I've settled on Eagle and
am never going back :)

Eagle won't do really advanced stuff like routing trace widths differently
depending on package/pin (the trace has a constant width everywhere), or
routing two traces to have the same length, or to follow each other, etc. For
that kind of stuff, you'll probably have to get Protel, Orcad, Mentor, etc.

Post by Grant Baxter
In the end, I'm looking for a powerful, flexible suite that will allow us to
grow as our company needs grow. If I can find a tool that will serve us for
years, the significant time commitment to fully exploiting a new toolsuite
will be easier to swallow.

There are two aspects of Eagle that, for me, are most important above all
others. First, there is no per-year licensing nonsense. When you buy the
software, you own it for life. No FlexLM madness, UUID-locked baggage that
rears its ugly head when you try to move all your files to a new computer.
Second, all of Eagle's schematics, boards, and libraries can be exported in
text format and can be modified through their script language. You, the user,
are in control and in ownership of the data. The manufacturer cannot hold you
hostage to a proprietary file format. Want to write a script to take all 74XX
devices in the library, make the drill holes 0.002" bigger, then save it to
a new library under a modified name? No problem.

In short, to borrow a phrase from Google, "CadSoft is not Evil". As long
as Eagle continues to not be "evil", I think it will be a great product.

[Rob Young]

Post by Andrew Sterian
Eagle won't do really advanced stuff like routing trace widths differently
depending on package/pin (the trace has a constant width everywhere), or
routing two traces to have the same length, or to follow each other, etc.
For
that kind of stuff, you'll probably have to get Protel, Orcad, Mentor, etc.

Not quite correct. With the NET CLASS command you can get pretty close.
While you can designate certian nets to be "POWER" with 16/8 width/space and
other nets as 8/8. Usually I don't have more than 3 or 4 classes (STD, PWR,
HIPWR and maybe a 4th for controlled impedance stuff). The net class
information is used in the DRC so it will alert you if you use the wrong
width/space when manually routing but unfortunately not during the route.

Rob

[Andrew Sterian]

Post by Rob Young

Post by Andrew Sterian
Eagle won't do really advanced stuff like routing trace widths differently
depending on package/pin (the trace has a constant width everywhere), or
routing two traces to have the same length, or to follow each other, etc.
For
that kind of stuff, you'll probably have to get Protel, Orcad, Mentor, etc.

Not quite correct. With the NET CLASS command you can get pretty close.
While you can designate certian nets to be "POWER" with 16/8 width/space and
other nets as 8/8. Usually I don't have more than 3 or 4 classes (STD, PWR,
HIPWR and maybe a 4th for controlled impedance stuff). The net class
information is used in the DRC so it will alert you if you use the wrong
width/space when manually routing but unfortunately not during the route.

Yeah, that's what I meant by "the trace has a constant width everywhere".
I sometimes need a trace on the same net (+12V say) to go from here
to there at 8mil and from there to over there at 50mil.

[Eric Tauch]

Snip

Would agree with all that been said.

I have used Eagle for maybe 10 years now.

I think the most amazing thing is that it has never crashed on me...not one
time. I have never lost any data.

As far as the operation of the program it is usable, and actually very
efficient once you learn its interface. I usually have to run various "ulp"
for some operations, but it gets the job done. The ulps replace some of the
fancier "built in" functions that the more expensive programs have.

I also use a lot of function keys or <CTRL> "hot keys" for short cuts. The
autorouter is actually pretty good, but I also have the ELECTRA router. It
is a very good router, but more expensive.

For fancy things like match length routing, you have to hand route and run a
ulp to calculate net lengths, and then "tune" the traces by hand. Not too
bad unless you have hundreds of nets like this (only on the largest
designs).

Good Luck,

Eric

[jim dorey]

Post by Eric Tauch

Snip

Would agree with all that been said.
I have used Eagle for maybe 10 years now.
I think the most amazing thing is that it has never crashed on me...not
one time. I have never lost any data.

i've had many crashes, but it's not eagles fault, cause when i don't
overload my system it's really really solid. i absolutely can't run it
with musicmatch and opera, they seem to have trouble with resources when
run together, and they combine(the farmer tool) nearly everything after an
hour running together.

[J Long]

Post by Grant Baxter
Hi All,
I've been using the Electronics workbench suite of schematic capture and
layout tools for a few years and I am FED UP with buggy software and bilking
for $$. I'm tired of paying EWB to do their QA for them. I don't consider
myself an advanced user, but I do have need for a reliable and flexible
schematic cap and layout package on a regular basis. I came to EWB from
expresspcb. I really really like expresspcb's clean simple interface and
rock solid dependable performance. However, as the complexity of my circuit
boards increased, I needed the ability to create 4 and 6 layer boards. I
was also interested in autorouter/autoplacer functionality, and the ability
to do some simulation on my circuits. I was also looking for some kind of
standard file input/output.
At this point, I'm less concerned about the ability to model circuits, and
more concerned about finding a workhorse software suite that will allow
myself and my co-workers to produce schematics and layouts quickly and
efficiently.

If you read the book from front to back and follow the tutorial as the first
thing it will get you up to speed quickly. *knocks on wood*

Post by Grant Baxter
- Bug free software that I can have confidence in (especially in critical
functions like connectivity checks and other design rules checks)

Havn't had it crash yet but all the boards I'm doing are stupidly simple 4
layer designs. DRC is iffy, I still go over every trace to ensure that it's
connected (ratsnest is your friend, use it).

Post by Grant Baxter
- Responsive support -- the fact that this forum exists and that tech
support is free is excellent.

Unless it's a rather oddball question it's usually answered quickly.

Post by Grant Baxter
- Accurate and frequently updated documentation

Haha, it's all in there but finding it can cause you to pull your own hair
out at times.

Post by Grant Baxter
- Flexible part creation & library support (schematic and layout). I need
to be able to create a part(s), send a schematic to a co-worker and have
them be able to either import a part(s) from the schematic file, or be able
to send them parts that they can incorporate into their libraries.

The parts are imbedded into the schematic.

Post by Grant Baxter
- Ability to forward annotate changes in schematic to layout.

It's on all the time, just don't turn it off. i.e. close the layout while
changing the schematic is a bad thing for the most part.

Post by Grant Baxter
- A respectable autorouter would be great - even if it just gets me started
and I have to wire the rest of the board by hand.

It will get you started for the most part in a general way...

Post by Grant Baxter
- Power plane support

Yeah

Post by Grant Baxter
Those are the items that come to mind at the moment. Anyone have experience
w/ these two products that could give me an objective comparison? I'm also
considering OrCAD as I've heard only positive comments from professionals
who use the software commercially -- even though the price of entry is quite
high.
I'm aware of Altium/Protel, but when I've visited their website, their
offerings seem very fragmented, and I'm not sure which package would be most
appropriate for analog/digital schematic capture and layout.
In the end, I'm looking for a powerful, flexible suite that will allow us to
grow as our company needs grow. If I can find a tool that will serve us for
years, the significant time commitment to fully exploiting a new toolsuite
will be easier to swallow.
Thanks,
Grant
Grant W. Baxter
Lead Systems Engineer
New Product Development
Sekos, Inc

Coming from Orcad/PowerPCB to Eagle was something of a culture shock for me
but as the boards I'm making here are really simple I don't need the
features of the more advanced programs. Of course I'm starting to get quite
good at making Eagle do what I want it to do. I really wouldn't try to do
any complex design with it though.
just my 2 cents worth.
Jeff.